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Gaining Part 2: Positions and Gaining (26/02/2014 19:41)

 “You are what you practice most.” 

- Richard Carlson

 

In the previous post I talked a little about player gains, and whether you could really improve them by surrounding your players with older ones. Today I'm going to look at how to control the type of attributes your players gain, rather than just the number.

For training and player camps, you can control this directly by choosing the attributes each player should focus on. But in matches, attributes scatter randomly across your players. Well, perhaps not randomly - those goalkeeping gains on your strikers must surely be some kind of cruel joke meted out by Spinner and his diabolical dice.

Ask around in the forums though, and most people believe that attribute gains aren't completely random. Instead, it's generally thought that different positions will boost different attributes - put your defender in midfield for example, and he should improve his passing. Play your midfielders up front, and their shooting should improve. It makes sense that a player's improvement should depend on the role he plays in a game, and Spinner's 15,000 lines of code are surely complex enough to include this sort of detail. So how true is it?

Once again, I'm going to dig into the data I've collected on my own players - just under 1200 match gains from the last 2.5 seasons, plus the number of friendlies and competitive games it took them to gain these. That means I know the average number of attributes gained per match for each player. What's more, I know this for each type of attribute separately - so for example I know that Danny Vanderhaeghe gained eight tackling in season 109, at a rate of +0.055 per match. Armed with all these numbers, we can use them to test whether the position a player is on the field affects the distribution of attribute gains they receive.


 

Measuring Gains

OK, so how do we measure the rate at which attributes are improving in different positions? Well first off, I used my regression model from the previous post to factor out the effect of age - in other words, I worked out the rate at which each player should be gaining attributes in a match, given their age, and subtracted that from what they actually earned. So now for every attribute on every player, for 3 different seasons, I know how much more or less they gained on that attribute per match than you would expect for someone their age. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, here's a snapshot for season 109:

Season 109 attribute gains per match, compared to the average for a player of the same age. Darker shading means better gaining.

 

So, for example, we can see that Danny Vanderhaeghe's +8 tackling over the course of that season was a better return than someone of his age should expect from the number of games he played: A typical 22-year-old should gain each attribute at a rate of +0.024 per match, so Danny's rate of +0.055/match during season 109 means his return is +0.031 better (0.055 minus 0.024). I also ran a quick correlation to see whether attributes tended to gain more slowly if they started out higher - this came out nonsignificant and extremely small, accounting for less than half a percent of the total variation we see in attribute gains. This is probably because not many of my players have high enough attributes yet for their gaining to slow down. The potential of the players also didn't have any significant effect on the gains. So, having checked for and removed the usual factors that determine gaining, we can now determine whether all the differences in the table above are just random, or whether they're being influenced by the positions each player is in. 


 

Effects of Position

We know what position each of those players was in for their games because I rarely if ever play them out of position. This means we can test out the idea that playing someone in defence helps their tackling, or that strikers earn shooting and heading stats faster than goalkeepers do. To do this, I averaged together all the extra attributes earned by players in a given position, and put them in the table below. To make things easier to interpret, each number is shown as a percentage of the total expected gain. So the defenders (green) Tk value of +20% means that tackling is gaining 20% faster in defenders than you might expect if all their attributes gained at the same rate.

Distribution of match attribute gains for different positions, relative to expected gains. Darker shading means better gaining.

 

So how do we interpret this? Well, just naively glancing at the pattern, we can spot a few things we would expect if position was really having an effect on gains. For example, attackers gain more shooting than other positions do, and attackers and defenders both gain heading a bit faster too. Passing increases a bit better for outfield players than goalkeepers, though not really any faster for midfielders. But there's a few things that look wrong, too: Why would tackling be gaining so much faster for goalkeepers and attackers than midfielders and defenders? And why does playing in goal help your stamina, but not your goalkeeping stat?

Certainly the data are pretty noisy. And we know already that position can't be the whole story, or we wouldn't keep getting keeping stat increases for our outfield players. But is there still a small, but real, advantage to be gained by playing in a particular position? A simple way to test this is by running some ANOVAs on the data. I'll skip over the statistical details, but essentially, this approach looks at the sizes of the effects in the table above, as well as the amount of variation across players, and gives us an estimate of whether a given pattern is reliable - consistent across players - or just down to random chance.

So, let's look at the pattern for each position, and use the ANOVA to tell us whether it's consistent across players. For goalkeepers, the ANOVA comes back very non-significant, indicating that those big numbers we see aren't really that reliable, but are instead just because we didn't have very many goalkeepers to look at in our sample. Defenders show the same story, although we have more data to look at we still can't really be certain that the pattern in the green row is very reliable. But the situation changes when we look at midfielders and goalkeepers: The distribution of gains across both of those rows seems to be pretty consistent across all of our players and seasons. In other words, it seems like maybe midfielders do gain tackling faster than they gain perception, and that strikers gain heading more than stamina.

And what's more, not only are these consistent patterns starting to emerge from our data, but they kind of make sense too. That's because the distribution of gains for midfielders and strikers roughly follow the stats that are important for those positions - and therefore the stats they might be using in a match. In other words, the pattern of gains for each position above shows a positive correlation with the amount each of the attributes contributes to quality. To use attackers as an example, heading, shooting and speed all contribute quite a lot to the attacker's quality, and they also increase a bit faster than normal during matches. Meanwhile goalkeeping, passing and stamina are a bit less important to quality, and don't increase so quickly. Overall, the mantra that you can influence the attributes gained by changing the position of your players seems to be true:

 

Position on the pitch does seem to affect the type of attributes players gain. 

 

Having said that, I'd like to revisit this in another thousand attributes or so just to see if the patterns are still there. The effects of position also seem to be quite small - gaining a stat 20-40% faster sounds like a lot, but that really just means one extra per season. So I wouldn't drive yourself crazy micromanaging your gains too much using this strategy, that's a sure-fire way to invite retribution from the gods of chance and be showered with goalkeeping stats.

Nonetheless, if you take this at face value, then go ahead and play your future attacking midfielders up front. Can't hurt. But make damn sure to put your young defender in goal for every last friendly...     


 

Any feedback or questions, please feel free to comment! In the next post I'll take a look at opposition quality. Can you gain faster by playing against higher quality teams? And if so, just how much?

 

- Belizio

 

  

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King-Eric wrote:
17:35 27/02 2014
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Great blog mate, keep up the good work (tup).

If I remeber correctly the gaining part of ML hasn't changed since I started playing this game. Therefore almost all the recepies have been tried in order to maximise the gains and it seems that the best one is with 6 young players and the rest of them 32+.

From my experience I can guarantee you that the most influential factor in gaining is the average age of the lineup around the youngsters so it would be nice to see what results you would get. Unfortunately your team is not set up for farming youngsters so your findings might not be conclusive.  

Looking forward to read your next post. 

 

Belizio wrote:
19:16 27/02 2014
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 Thanks for the feedback!

I definitely don't see any reason to doubt that the age/experience of surrounding players helps gains - Spinner has told us so directly, right? And of course I haven't directly tested the effect of age. Actually I did record the old/young player balance for about 50 games, but it was just taking too much time so I just kept track of opposition quality instead, which I'll talk about in the next post.

I think the more interesting question - which I haven't seen asked - is how much of a bonus you get for older players. That's not an important question if your only aim is add the most attributes to a single player (or 6), e.g. for a gaining contest. Every little helps, right?

But I think it does become relevant for every other situation, because by playing those 8 older players you're sacrificing the opportunity to earn gains on up to 8 other youngsters. So if you're seeking to maximise your total attribute gains, or player value, etc. etc. then the data get a little more ambigious, because you may actually be gaining less efficiently overall if the sacrifices outweigh the advantages. Looking at my own attribute gains, on medium-star players and ignoring the older players strategy, it seems to me that most of the monster gains youth farms post are probably due to the sheer number of games those 6 players get, and only a smaller proportion are from the old/young setup. I'd love to see some more data from other people though, especially if anyone's kept track of lineups and can do a direct comparison!

Ultimately, instead of telling a newbie on the forums to surround his young players with older ones, I'd probably be a bit more nuanced - you have to balance the advantage that gives you with the sacrifices you're making elsewhere in the team. There's not just one ideal recipe for gaining that everyone should follow. That's a strength of Managerleague of course!

King-Eric wrote:
20:01 27/02 2014
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It is true that most of managers recommed to new players to use oldies for training the young ones but this is in my opinion the most "effective" way of reaching the top of the game with a chance of fighting for trophies. There were cases of MLCL finalist after 12-14 seasons from the start. 

You might find the folowing statement usefull for your investigation. It was made by spinner some time ago in the forums, however he contradicted himself many times since then. I believe the statement is true but because of the Q inflation he might have thought that is not a good idea to give all this information away.

"There are so many factors involved in this "gaining-bit", each of them alone has almost no impact. Ok, a stronger opponent might increase the chance of gaining marginally. However, against a strong opponent, your team is likely to perform "less good" due to being tackled, intercepted etc, which is another factor in the gaining-thing. Along with minutes on the pitch, individual performance, potential, which stat is selected for gaining, how high the stat is, how much the stat was used etc etc etc etc....

I doubt very much that this "generally held opinion", or "effect" can be measured at all in any other place than a managers psyche."

 

 

Belizio wrote:
20:17 27/02 2014
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 That's a great quote, cheers for digging it up. It chimes with what I've been seeing in my data: That the gaining formula is really quite complex, and aspects like minutes on the pitch, opponent strength, age balance etc. all have very small individual effects. 

I think it's nice that the game has enough complexity that you can adopt different strategies and still be successful. Surrounding your players with older ones might boost their gains, but you gain fewer attributes overall, so it depends how much you want to focus on a few players. Only playing friendlies against higher-quality teams might boost gaining, or damage it due to reduced performance. Position on the pitch might help one stat gain more, but reduce overall gaining rate due to lower performance. Training secondary stats at camps might be more likely to give you a gain since they start lower, but be worth less per gain. There's plenty of room for managers to adapt a strategy to their own aims and be successful.

ScuzBucket wrote:
07:03 26/07 2014
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 After reading one of your later blogs about tackling = ball control the gain in tackling here might make a bit more sense. I have been reading these blogs for the last couple of days (since my long awaited return to ML) and I think they are the best ever written about Manager League.I am basing my recruitment, tactics and training on your recommendations so I look forward to being wildly misled!

Belizio wrote:
07:27 26/07 2014
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 Thanks! Welcome back :-) Undoubtedly some of it will be wrong (I just don't know which bits!) but hopefully it will help steer you in a successful direction, especially combined with a healthy dose of skepticism and some wisdom from the more experienced guys.

I was actually thinking about doing a follow-up to this, I have much cleaner data from 12,000 players (which also takes into account the existing level of an attribute, i.e. that it's harder to raise one at 90 than at 60). Until I get time, the upshot is: Position definitely does affect which attributes are gained, so putting a midfielder in attack should raise their shooting etc. :-)

ScuzBucket wrote:
07:42 27/07 2014
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Thanks :)  I was wondering whether you had factored that in. I'm glad that you can use games to target specific skills; if no-one uses training and their are limited training camps how else can you develop your players in a particular way? I don't like the idea that developing players in specific ways isn't part of the game - I think that would be a great loss to the enjoyement of playing a football manager.

I'm quite interested in developing a team that is developed to play counter-attacks. I think counter-attack and offside would go together, as well as strikers with good tackling, speed and perception, and defenders with good perception. If you have any ideas on how to make a good counter-attacking team I'd be interested to hear them!

ScuzBucket wrote:
08:42 27/07 2014
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Thanks :)  I was wondering whether you had factored that in. I'm glad that you can use games to target specific skills; if no-one uses training and their are limited training camps how else can you develop your players in a particular way? I don't like the idea that developing players in specific ways isn't part of the game - I think that would be a great loss to the enjoyement of playing a football manager.

I'm quite interested in developing a team that is developed to play counter-attacks. I think counter-attack and offside would go together, as well as strikers with good tackling, speed and perception, and defenders with good perception. If you have any ideas on how to make a good counter-attacking team I'd be interested to hear them!

Belizio wrote:
09:19 27/07 2014
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 I have never tried to use counter-attacking, mainly because I am deeply unsure how it works. But good tackling and perception for strikers is great anyway as it helps them avoid tackles and offside traps respectively - the two main ways of stopping an attack. Speed I believe is useful for counter attacking in all players, but I recommend you find a top manager who plays it regularly (look for 5* counter-attacking stat) and pm them for advice? Most guys on here are helpful :-) DansendHert is a great example of using it effectively in recent seasons, a few good CL runs with a below-par Q but 5-3-2 counter-attacking system.

ScuzBucket wrote:
15:15 27/07 2014
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 Thanks, I'll check DansendHert out!

 

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